Mike Rose: Revealing Magic's Hidden Histories

Adrian Tennant [00:00:00]:

Coming up in this episode of The Magic Book Podcast.

Mike Rose [00:00:04]:

You can be a fan of magic history, but I think if you're a magic historian, maybe you go a little further and you're into researching and cataloging and keeping track of things. And collectors could be considered magic historians because they're chronicling the things they collect. They're keeping track of them.

Adrian Tennant [00:00:22]:

You're listening to The Magic Book Podcast, conversations about classic and contemporary books that teach, illuminate, and celebrate the art of magic. I'm your host, Adrian Tennant, a lifetime student of magic and mentalism, occasional performer, and longtime book collector. Thanks for joining me. Today, my guest is Mike Rose, a professional magician, magic historian, and award winning author. As a performer, Mike has presented his comedy magic in venues across the US and Canada, from dinner theaters and corporate events to Renaissance festivals and presidential inaugurations. As a magic historian, Mike has become particularly well known for his deep dives into previously undocumented aspects of magic's past. His first book — "Joe Karson: Beyond Zombie," a biography of the nearly forgotten, yet highly influential magician from the early twentieth century — received the library special award from the book award committee of the Society of American Magicians. Along with co-author Mark Walker, Mike also wrote "Maryland's Ambassador of Magic: Phil Thomas and the Yogi Magic Mart," detailing the life and legacy of this Baltimore magic icon.

Adrian Tennant [00:01:43]:

Currently, Mike is working on his next two books, "Masters of Mishap: The Kohl and Company Story," and a biography of Al Wheatley, the magician who popularized the chop cup. Mike, welcome to The Magic Book Podcast.

Mike Rose [00:01:59]:

Well, thank you. It's exciting to be here.

Adrian Tennant [00:02:01]:

Well, let's start at the beginning. What were your first experiences with magic?

Mike Rose [00:02:07]:

Well, I think my story is very similar to most people that got into magic. I don't remember why, but I asked for a magic kit for my eighth birthday. And, you know, that set it off in that I was bit by the magic bug, as they like to say. Not long after that, I got a second magic kit. And so I was playing with these toy magic tricks that came in these two magic sets. And one day, I was in the elementary school library, and we were supposed to check out a book. You know, they're trying to encourage young kids to read. And I thought, "Hey!"

Mike Rose [00:02:39]:

"I'll ask the librarian if there's such a thing as a magic book." And it turned out there was. And so that was the next thing that got me going, realizing that I didn't have to just rely on these toy magic kits. There were actually magic books in the world.

Adrian Tennant [00:02:53]:

So what role did magic books play then in your early development as a magician?

Mike Rose [00:02:58]:

Well, one thing that we have to keep in mind is the era. I mean, we're talking about the late sixties, early seventies, so there's no Internet. There's not even videotapes yet. And so books were the only source. And the elementary school librarian, she took me over to the shelf where the magic book — singular — was. It was the only magic book in the elementary school library, and I have a fond memory of it. As a matter of fact, years later, I tracked down a copy on eBay just to have it for sentimental reasons. It was called "Spooky Tricks" by Rose Wyler, and there are tricks that had kind of a scary theme to them, and not super scary because it's written for kids.

Mike Rose [00:03:38]:

But, yeah, so that was the book, and I kept checking it out over and over and over again because it's the only magic book in the school library. And I think the librarian just took pity on me. She finally said, "If you go to the public library, they probably have more than one magic book there." And, you know, at eight years old, I was amazed. I was like, "Wait. There's such a thing as a public library?" I don't think I even knew before she told me that. So, yeah, obviously, I went to the public library, got my library card, and there was a whole shelf of magic books. But the other thing that I recall, and in hindsight, it's kind of interesting, is that the first magic book I purchased using my allowance money was called "The Great Houdini."

Mike Rose [00:04:18]:

It was a biography of Houdini by Beryl Williams, and that was the first book I purchased that I actually owned. And what I find interesting about it is that it was a magic history book. It was a biography. And so a little foreshadowing of my future interest in magic history. So that could be why the magic history bug bit as well.

Adrian Tennant [00:04:38]:

And where were you in America at this time?

Mike Rose [00:04:41]:

Oh, at that time, I grew up in Michigan, in Flint, Michigan. Back then, it was all auto industry. All my family worked in the auto industry. So, yeah, I grew up in Michigan. After school, I moved away to the east coast just because I wanted to strike out and look for opportunities as a magician.

Adrian Tennant [00:04:56]:

Well, when we were preparing for this podcast, you mentioned that you got your professional start in the nineteen eighties working in comedy clubs.

Mike Rose [00:05:04]:

Right.

Adrian Tennant [00:05:05]:

Mike, I'm curious. How did that shape your approach to magic?

Mike Rose [00:05:09]:

Well, magic was — and is — my first love, but I also have always been a big fan of comedy. And in my teens, I fell in love with Monty Python. To this day, if I have a free half hour, I'll watch an episode of Monty Python's Flying Circus. Not just the movies, but the TV episodes is what I originally fell in love with. And growing up in Michigan, we also were able to get a channel from Canada, and so I was, introduced to SCTV, another comedy troupe based out of Canada. And so, those two troupes, Monty Python and SCTV, really shaped my love of comedy. And in the nineteen eighties — now we jump ahead to where I'm an adult and trying to be a magician — it was a comedy club boom. And any bar that had a mister microphone and a six by six platform said "We're a comedy club with a stage and sound system."

Mike Rose [00:05:59]:

So, yeah, so I started working in comedy clubs and as a place to do my magic. But I learned real quickly there's a couple key facts about working in a comedy club as opposed to just doing a magic show. These tiny stages, there's no wings, there's no place to store anything. You basically had to walk on with your act and walk off with it. So it had to be portable and efficient. And the other thing that shaped my performing style was from observing comics because I was basically trial under fire. I was learning while I was going. And so from observing the other comics, I learned the importance of improvisation, just being extemporaneous in the moment and playing off of the audience.

Mike Rose [00:06:36]:

And I still do that today. It's one of my favorite things to do with an audience because not only is it fresh for the audience, it's fresh for me, and that conveys to the audience that you're not just doing a canned performance. And when I say improvise, I didn't really improvise with the magic, but I improvised with the presentation, with the interacting with the audience. So my magic was set how I was going to perform it and the effect, but the presentation just finding things that that the audience would say to play off of to work into the magic performance. And many lines and gags ended up being permanent parts of my act that were just found from this improving with the audience.

Adrian Tennant [00:07:16]:

Well, you've described yourself as a magician first who uses comedy as a vehicle to convey magic. Mike, can you talk about how that distinction has been important in your performing career?

Mike Rose [00:07:29]:

Yeah. Actually, my mantra is "Magic first, comedy second." So, I don't want the magic to suffer in order to get a laugh. Again, seeing all these comics in the comedy club circuits, I saw comics who I could tell clearly had a bit of a background in magic, but they didn't really perform magic in their act. They might use a prop to get a laugh, but not really create a magical effect. So they weren't necessarily exposing a trick to get a laugh, although that did happen too. But more they were downplaying the magic as unimportant and, you know, punching up the laughs more than the magic.

Mike Rose [00:08:06]:

So I tried to make it clear to the audience that I was a magician and not a comic who bought a couple of props, you know, at the magic shop. So improv-ing with and interacting with the audience in a humorous way, I let them come to their own conclusions whether or not I was funny. You know, of course, it was important to get the audience laughing, but to me, it was equally important to amaze them with the magic.

Adrian Tennant [00:08:29]:

Well, you moved to Baltimore in the nineteen nineties. Mike, what drew you to the area, and how did that move ultimately influence your magic career?

Mike Rose [00:08:39]:

Well, growing up in Michigan, I didn't move straight to Baltimore, but I moved to the east coast. I was in Northern Virginia — the Washington, DC area — and I met my future wife who lived in the Baltimore area. So because it doesn't really matter too much where I live as a performer because I have to go to the shows, she lived near her place of employment, so, I made the decision to move closer to her. So that's what brought me to the Baltimore area. And it lucked out because just dumb luck that Baltimore is very geographically convenient for a performer because I'm within an hour or so driving distance of several large cities, so several markets to draw on for gigs. I'm close to DC, Philadelphia, Wilmington, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and Southern New Jersey. You know, I can drive to that gig and be back home in my own bed each night. So it's a great area for a performer.

Adrian Tennant [00:09:31]:

Your first book, "Joe Karson: Beyond Zombie" published in 1999, tells the story of the inventor of the zombie floating ball illusion. Mike, what sparked your interest in Joe Karson, and how did you end up writing the book?

Mike Rose [00:09:48]:

Well, four words. "The Lulu Hurst Society." This was sort of, I wanna say magazine, but not really. It was called "The Lulu Hurst Society," and it was a magic publication. Let's put it that way. And it was the brainchild of magician, artist, author, Tom Jorgensen. And, Tom, if you get to listen to this, I'll send you an email to make sure you hear it so you know you've been name dropped. But Tom Jorgensen, this was around 1995.

Mike Rose [00:10:17]:

I think it ran for about five years. He put out installments, or I think he called them "encumbrances." So rather than getting a magazine every three months or so, it was quarterly, I think, you would get a package from Tom, and it would be a combination of things that he wrote, artwork that he did, reprints of out-of-copyright old magic publications and little pamphlets and things, and also things that subscribers contributed and wrote up and sent in. So it was just a fun thing to get every couple months from Tom. And one of these encumbrances had a little reprint of a booklet from 1934. And it was called "The Sensational Poison Swallowing Act." It was an act that taught you how to apparently swallow poison, kind of like a sideshow kind of thing. And the author was the name Jay Karson, the initial 'J', Karson with a 'K.'

Mike Rose [00:11:08]:

And I wasn't into magic history at this point. This was around 1999, I think. But I knew the name Joe Karson as the guy who invented the Zombie. Like most magicians, we played with a Zombie Ball when we were in our formative years, and many still perform it today. But so I know it was Joe Karson was the inventor of the Zombie Ball. So I wondered, "Is this a coincidence? There's another guy named Karson that wrote this poison swallowing act, or was it the same guy? And it is possible?" I mean, there could be more than one Jay Karson because, believe it or not, there's more than one Mike Rose performing magic. There's a Mike Rose who lives in Great Britain, and I've been confused with him once or twice.

Mike Rose [00:11:46]:

But, anyway, so it's possible there could have been more than one Karson. So I called up Tom Jorgensen and asked whether he knew if this J. Karson was Joe Karson. And he said he wasn't sure. And I said, "Well, it wasn't a big deal. I was just curious." Then I said the fateful words. I said to him, "It's not like I'm gonna write a book about him or anything." And then one year of research and writing later, I published my first book, "Joe Karson: Beyond Zombie."

Mike Rose [00:12:14]:

So it really was just an accident, you know, of getting this little pamphlet and being curious about him, and that's how I got into magic history as well because of my curiosity about Joe Karson.

Adrian Tennant [00:12:26]:

During your research for the Karson book, what were some of the most surprising or unexpected discoveries you made about him?

Mike Rose [00:12:35]:

Well, you've got to remember, this is my first time ever doing research of any kind, you know, magic research. So I was flying blind, so pretty much anything I learned was new to me and a surprise because it was all new to me. But probably one of the first things right off the bat that was a surprise, it turned out his name wasn't Joe Karson. It was not his birth name. He was of Polish ancestry, and his last name was Chrzanowski. So, you know, he changed it to Karson, and I didn't know that until I started in my research. And the other thing that was really a surprise about him was that he was fairly prolific. He didn't just invent the Zombie.

Mike Rose [00:13:12]:

He owned a magic shop in Springfield, Massachusetts, and he had several tricks that he created and marketed. He also wrote several books, you know, booklet type books, and he put out many things, but magicians only really knew him for the Zombie because that's really what took off. You know, the Zombie was revolutionary. Today, you know, magicians say, "But it's the old ball-on-the-stick." They have a hackneyed opinion of it. But you've got to realize back in 1943 when he created this, it was revolutionary. Before that, if you wanted to do a floating ball, you had to have wings, a full-size stage. You had to have somebody in the wings helping you control the thread, you know, the way that Thurston and used to do it and that sort of thing.

Mike Rose [00:13:51]:

But he revolutionized it. You could perform the Floating Ball, the Zombie now, in any venue as a one man act, no assistant helping you. So it was really revolutionary, and that's why I think it stayed in the magic culture pretty much permanently because of how revolutionary it was at the time. And as a matter of fact, he even had a second trick that he kind of used, I think, the Zombie as a template for. And this was a much more expensive trick, so it wasn't as accessible to as many magicians and hobbyists, that sort of thing, but it was called The Voodoo. And it was basically the dancing handkerchief, the way Blackstone popularized it, except it could be done on any stage, and it was a one-man trick. You didn't need an assistant in the wings pulling the thread. So, again, it was kind of a similar template that he did with a Zombie.

Mike Rose [00:14:41]:

And that was an eye-opener to me that he had also created that. And another thing that was a big surprise about Karson, because, again, you know, all this research was new to me, is that the end of his life — it was actually a sad surprise — it turned out he was an alcoholic. He had gone through two divorces. And, basically, he was living a frugal life and just managing to scrape by, and he died penniless and was basically buried in a pauper's, an unmarked grave. So all of that was a real eye-opener and a surprise. His whole life was a surprise to me because, like I said, I'd never done any research on magic before, and to learn all these things was really exciting. But just as a little side note, I was really sad when I went and visited his gravesite, and it was an unmarked grave.

Mike Rose [00:15:28]:

So, in April, the year that the book was released at the Magic Collectors Weekend, it was held in Baltimore in that year, in April. And I did a lecture on Karson and released the book there. And so I took up a collection at this to purchase a headstone for Karson, and we got enough to do that. I was able to purchase the stone and got permission from the church cemetery, and now he has a marked grave. And that was because of the magicians at this collector's event all pitched in, so it was a nice little afterthought.

Adrian Tennant [00:15:55]:

It is. One thing I really enjoyed about "Joe Karson: Beyond Zombie" was you walking us through the different prototypes and different versions of Zombie that existed. That was super interesting. Did that surprise you?

Mike Rose [00:16:08]:

Yeah. Because you wonder how does a creator create, and there is no real answer for that. And from talking to people who were still alive when I was researching the book who knew Karson, gave me different opinions about how the Zombie came about. And there's not really definitive proof that it's one specific inspiration. There's the favorite story that people like to tell that he was inspired while he was repairing his toilet. Because in the older toilets, there's a float that's a ball shape on a rod. And if you it's not my long jump to think, "Hey, that's a Zombie Ball on a rod."

Mike Rose [00:16:44]:

And so that's a favorite story that goes around. There's also … it was a trick called The Fairy Glass, which you can make a glass levitate because your thumb could stick to the back of it, and, you know, it's kind of a similar idea. So all of these, I think, could have been inspiration that finally kind of came to fruition when he thought, "Hey, I can make this into a Floating Ball." One of the really interesting things that I found while researching the Zombie was in 1943, [the US] was in the middle of World War two. And in The US, there were material shortages. And today, you know that Zombies, of course, are aluminum. Well, aluminum was not easy to get during the war.

Mike Rose [00:17:19]:

And so the first Zombie Balls for the first couple months were actually made of glass, and I think he just used repurposed Christmas ornaments, you know? So you have this glass ball, and we could float around. And if you think back to when you first were playing with a Zombie, how many dented zombies there are in the world because, you know, it falls off the thing while you're practicing. It bounces across the floor! Well, I have never seen a glass Zombie, and I think that's why. Because when you're practicing with it, if you drop it, it doesn't dent. It shatters, and it's gone. Right.

Mike Rose [00:17:49]:

But the original instructions referred to the Zombie as a glass ball, so, I know it was the case. But then was it much longer where he found the source for aluminum and then the Zombie ball we know today was born.

Adrian Tennant [00:18:02]:

Well, your book sold out pretty quickly. Did that early success affect your path then as a writer and historian?

Mike Rose [00:18:12]:

Well, I think it did. It wasn't really a conscious decision to become a magic historian. I just got interested in magic history, and I think there's a very subtle difference. You can be a fan of magic history, but I think if you're a magic historian, maybe you go a little further and you're into researching and not necessarily writing, but at least researching and cataloging and keeping track of things. And collectors could be considered magic historians because they're chronicling the things they collect. They're keeping track of them. At the time, when I put out the Karson book and it sold out in a couple months, which really was a very, very nice surprise, I really wasn't planning to do another book because I only did this one because as I mentioned, I was curious about "The Sensational Poison Swallowing Act" pamphlet, and it spurred on this book. But at that very first Magic Collectors' Weekend in April, it was the first one I ever attended.

Mike Rose [00:19:08]:

I'd never been exposed to all these magic collectors and historians before. And as they're buying the Joe Karson book, most of them would then say, "Oh, well, what book are you working on now?" And I'm like, "What do you mean?" They go, "Well, this one's done. So what's your next book?" I said, "I have to do another one?" I didn't know that was the deal. And so it got me thinking. I thought, "Well, it was really fun researching and learning about Karson. Maybe I should start a second one." And so that's kind of how it influenced me to become interested in being not just a fan of magic history, but being a magic historian.

Mike Rose [00:19:46]:

And I think it was sort of a little bit of peer pressure from the people kind of implying you should be writing a second book. And then I went, "Oh, okay. I'm in." And so that was just kind of how it worked out.

Adrian Tennant [00:19:57]:

Mike, you also worked with a previous guest on this podcast, Chris Wasshuber of Lybrary.com to make a collection of Joe Karson's work available. I'm curious - what prompted that collaboration?

Mike Rose [00:20:10]:

Well, that was actually Chris's idea and a good one too. You know, after the Karson book sold out, he approached me about turning it into an ebook, and I thought, "Yeah, sure." Because I had no intention of republishing a second edition or anything. So he helped me turn that into an ebook, which is available on his site, lybrary.com — 'library' with a 'y' - .com. And, you know, in the book, it mentions all of Karson's other books and even a magazine that Karson published for a short while. It only lasted for seven issues. It was called "Biz for the Wiz."

Mike Rose [00:20:39]:

It was just a little four-page magazine that had gags and jokes and things for magicians to use. But, all of these booklets that Karson had written and mostly self-published and this magazine, they were very difficult to find when I was doing research because, again, the Internet was still pretty much in its infancy in 1999. And so I had to find in the old fashioned way, I had to call up libraries and track down other magicians who, were book collectors and see if they had copies in their library. So, you know, after a lot of work, I was able to track down them all. And Chris said, "Well, wouldn't it be nice to just put all these in an ebook so that they're accessible to people?" And I thought, "Yeah. That's a great idea." So that was mainly why we did it because most of Karson's booklets were written in the thirties and forties, and they weren't really hardbound books or anything. They were just little pamphlets often stapled together, and they did not last long.

Mike Rose [00:21:30]:

So it's nice to have a digital version of them all as a nice resource, and I've got to thank Chris for that. That was his idea.

Adrian Tennant [00:21:36]:

Perfect. If you're enjoying this episode of The Magic Book Podcast, please consider leaving a rating on Spotify or a review on Apple Podcasts. You can also follow The Magic Book Podcast page on Facebook. Thanks. Mike, your second book, "Maryland's Ambassador of Magic: Phil Thomas and the Yogi Magic Mart," co-authored with Mark Walker, was published in 2020. How did this project come about?

Mike Rose [00:22:06]:

Well, that is because of Mark Walker. Mark Walker is another of the magic historians that I met at my very first Magic Collectors' Weekend in Baltimore in April. Mark's well known as an expert on ghost shows, and his book "Ghostmasters" is the book of that genre of magic. So he is the guy that knows ghost shows. We became friends. As it turns out, we only live about two miles from each other. So he grew up in Baltimore. I didn't, obviously, but we now both live in Bel Air, Maryland, which is a couple miles north of Baltimore, and we're almost neighbors.

Mike Rose [00:22:38]:

So we became friends, and Mark grew up with Phil Thomas. I mean, once Mark was interested in magic, he would go to Phil Thomas's Yogi Magic Mart, which was the big magic shop that Phil owned. And Mark wasn't just a customer of Phil, but he was a friend. Phil died in 1998, and Mark started working on a book, a biography on Phil Thomas. And after working on it for a while, he kind of let it sit dormant for a few years, and then he approached me and asked if I could take what he had written so far and finish it. He said he just was kind of burned out and thought that, you know, fresh eyes could really finish this book. So I agreed. He said, "You know, just take what I've written and add your own stuff."

Mike Rose [00:23:21]:

"And as long as you put my name as co-author, I'll be happy." And I said, "Hey, you know, that sounds like a fun project. I'll take it on." Well, I started doing some research on Phil because I didn't grow up knowing Phil Thomas. I started tracking down people who knew him and collecting anecdotes and just kind of adding a little more flavor to the writing. And I started showing Mark what I was doing, and it lit the fire under Mark again. He started getting really excited about the book again.

Mike Rose [00:23:46]:

And rather than him asking me just to finish it, we now were writing partners, which I much preferred because having him as a resource was a big deal in writing this book. So we were working together as a team, and we made a really good balance because, you know, as I mentioned, Mark was a close friend of Phil, and he even considered Phil his mentor in some ways. And I - well, I wasn't a close friend of Phil. So those two perspectives really helped balance the writing, and our two perspectives really can be seen, you know, I think when you read the book. So it made a big difference.

Adrian Tennant [00:24:19]:

So can you tell us about Phil Thomas's significance in the Baltimore magic scene and his influence on magic more broadly?

Mike Rose [00:24:26]:

Well, yeah, sure. Actually, Phil was a big deal in the Baltimore magic community for approximately, oh, almost fifty years. He had his magic shop called the Yogi Magic Mart, and it was the center of the magic universe in Baltimore. He actually even called it "The Mecca Of Magic," and it was visiting magicians coming from out of town. You know, they would go to Phil's shop. All the local guys, that's the place to go. There were other little magic shops in and around Baltimore, but Phil's was the magic shop.

Mike Rose [00:24:56]:

And he was not just a magic shop owner either. He was also a performer. He also hosted a local TV show in the 1950s. He published books. He also had the Yogi Magic Club, so it was a place where magicians would come and meet and swap tricks and that sort of thing. And he was active outside of Baltimore too. He was what they would call a magic "jobber." So he would purchase magic from creators and sources, and then he would wholesale it to other magic shops.

Mike Rose [00:25:24]:

So rather than just straight wholesaling, he was wholesaling to other places who then sell as retail. So if that makes sense, it's like an extra level of discount when you're a jobber. And so he started wholesaling magic to other shops, and he would go around the country to conventions and set up as a dealer. And so he wasn't just Baltimore. That was his main thing, but he did have a kind of a far reaching effect that other magicians from around the country did know Phil from his magic wholesaling to their shops and also to his appearances at magic conventions. And there's many people still alive today because, I mean, Phil only passed away about thirty years ago or so. So there's many people still alive today who were influenced by Phil and still speak kindly of him. And everybody who knew Phil also taught me this - that he referred to them, if he liked them.

Mike Rose [00:26:12]:

He called them "My dear boy." So it's like, "My dear boy!" That was his favorite colloquialism. So and the other thing that I learned from all the people that knew Phil was that Phil was definitely a book guy. He would love to sell you a magic trick, but then he would also explain the importance of a magic book where you're buying one trick, you're learning one trick, but if you're buying a book, you could be learning dozens. And that was his standard line to anybody that came in his shop.

Adrian Tennant [00:26:38]:

Well, in your book, you describe Phil Thomas' connections to other notable magicians, including Milbourne Christopher and Hen Fetsch. What was the nature of these relationships, and how did they influence the Baltimore magic community?

Mike Rose [00:26:55]:

Well, Hen Fetsch and Milbourne Christopher, their names that many listeners may know, they were referred to as "The Unholy Trio," and they got that nickname as teenage boys. They met in Baltimore. They all grew up in Baltimore. They're all boyhood friends, and they got this "Unholy Trio" nickname because as teens all interested in magic, they would go to any visiting magician's show. As magicians came into town, they wouldn't just go see the show once. They would try to see every performance, and they would go backstage, introduce themselves to the visiting magicians, and the magicians coming into town learned to expect a visit from "The Unholy Trio." But they got this name from a magician named George Reuschling. He actually performed under the stage name of The Great La Follette.

Mike Rose [00:27:42]:

He was a stage illusionist. He also did a quick change act where, you know, stepping behind a curtain for a split second, he came out in totally different clothes and different facial features. So he actually is the one that coined the phrase and gave him their nickname, the unholy trio, and they wore it like a badge of honor. They enjoyed referring to themselves as "The Unholy Trio." Now, I think most magicians know the name Milbourne Christopher. He made quite a name for himself. He ended up moving to New York. He became a successful performer, historian, collector.

Mike Rose [00:28:15]:

He was a TV pioneer. His show in 1957 was The Festival of Magic. It was the first ninety-minute television magic special, so he was a pioneer in magic on TV. And today, there's the Milbourne Christopher Awards that are given out in his name. It was an organization that was set up by his late wife, Maureen, so his name carries on today. Hen Fetsch may not be as familiar to some as Milbourne Christopher, but he still made quite an impact on magic. He died fairly young. He had a heart attack when he was maybe in his fifties and passed away fairly young.

Mike Rose [00:28:52]:

But although his name might not be as well known, his most famous invention is Mental Epic, the board with the six different compartments where you read someone's mind three different times. Well, that was a Hen Fetsch creation and many other tricks. So he was very prolific at inventing magic. So these three people who were all boyhood friends, all interested in magic, all made profound impacts on the magic culture, which to me is just amazing that the three of them would all — in their own way — have this impact. And just real quick, on the topic of them going backstage and meeting visiting magicians, Thurston would come into town, and the teenage boys obviously would go see him. That was a big deal. And from going backstage and meet them, Thurston got to know Phil really well and would actually have him do errands for him, like run out and he needs another rabbit for the next show, different odd jobs. And one time, he even assisted Thurston on stage helping with the Sawing A Woman In Half. He would let Phil stand in the wings to watch the show, which was unheard of in those days.

Mike Rose [00:29:57]:

And so, really, Thurston took Phil kind of under his wing. And when Phil was about to graduate from high school, Thurston offered him a job on his show to travel the country and work with him. But after a lot of thought, Phil decided to turn it down, and he wanted to really make his way as a magician himself, and he didn't see touring with Thurston as being exactly what he had in store for himself. So these three boys really did have an amazing impact on the visiting magicians as well. They all knew who they were and expected their visits backstage.

Adrian Tennant [00:30:29]:

Well, you describe how the Yogi Magic Mart becomes a real watering hole. One dramatic episode you cover in the book is the Yogi Magic Mart fire in 1978. How did Phil respond to this catastrophe, and what do you think it reveals about his character?

Mike Rose [00:30:47]:

Yeah. Well, actually, the Yogi Magic Mart had three locations over its lifetime, over the nearly fifty years. It started off ... they were all on South Charles Street in Baltimore, which is a shopping district. The first one was at 215 South Charles Street, and he was there for twenty some years. And then the city decided they had to tear down the building to make room for the wider road. So he was forced to move, and he moved north a block to 310 South Charles Street. And that's the building where there was a fire. And that fire occurred in 1978.

Mike Rose [00:31:19]:

So he had been there for twelve years, and then there was a fire there. And I also should mention that his shops were always on the second floor of a building, and he was very old school. He didn't wanna have a big window on the ground level where just laymen or curiosity seekers would come in and start asking about secrets. So you always had to find his shop. There was a tiny little brass plaque on the door that said "Yogi Magic Mart," so you had to know where it was to find it, and it was on the second floor. And so the second location where the fire occurred, he actually occupied it was a four-floor building. He occupied the top three floors. So the second floor was the shop.

Mike Rose [00:31:58]:

The third floor was the Yogi Magic Club, which housed Phil's collection of antique apparatus and posters and magician's photographs. And the fourth floor, he used for storage. Well, he was actually driving to a convention, and the magic shop was closed the day of the fire. That morning, smoke was seen coming out of the building, and some of his friends were alerted. They got news to him that his building was on fire. And so he turned his car around and got back to Baltimore the following day. He just had to cancel his convention appearance. And when he got to the shop, it was just soggy from the water from the firemen putting out the fire and just soot and grime and just wreckage.

Mike Rose [00:32:41]:

The building survived, but the fire managed to burn through the roof of the building. But, of course, the contents were pretty severely damaged, but the building survived. So he's walking around in the building and all this smoldering wet debris. He and his friends were looking through to see if there's anything they could salvage, and he did manage to find a few things. But for the most part, it was pretty much a major loss. And at one point, while they're walking around in the wreckage, a teenage boy came to the doorway and looked in, and his mouth's just hanging open in shock at the carnage. And after a minute or two of staring in disbelief, he kind of regained his composure, and he asked Phil if the Copenetro that he'd ordered had come in. And everybody in the shop just stared at him and didn't reply.

Mike Rose [00:33:30]:

But, you know, in 1978, Phil was 66 years old when this fire occurred. So most of his friends figured, "Well, you know, the Yogi Magic Mart is done. Phil will retire." But Phil grew up and lived through the Depression. I mean, he was a fighter, and he was always optimistic. That was one of the things I learned from talking to people that knew him. He was one of the most optimistic people they'd ever met. And so he didn't see this as the end.

Mike Rose [00:33:57]:

And two months later, he opened the Yogi Magic Mart at its third location. And that was at 217 South Charles Street. So it was just a couple doors up from where the first one had been torn down in a block south of where the one burned. So, this new space, again, on the second floor, actually had a tiny elevator. The other ones didn't. And it had been an Arthur Murray Dance Studio. So it was really an interesting-looking space. It was a long, thin, expansive room because they used to practice dancing there for the dance school.

Mike Rose [00:34:26]:

And he opened the shop, like I said, two months later, and he still stored some singed and smoke damaged props that he took out of the old place. And sometimes he would sell them, but for the most part, he just stored them and kept them in the back. But, yeah, he bounced back and just moved to a new location and business as usual. Had the grand opening, I believe it was Labor Day weekend in 1978. So literally just two months after the fire, he was back in business.

Adrian Tennant [00:34:50]:

Wow. A fun fact I learned from your book: Phil Thomas was the first president of the Magic Dealers Association. How do you think this helped the Yogi Magic Mart's business?

Mike Rose [00:35:02]:

Yeah. That was, founded in 1947. He was the first president of the Magic Dealers Association, but he also helped found it. And, oh, and coincidentally, how's this for being a small world? The first Vice President who served with Phil was Joe Karson. It's like my two worlds collided there. And so the Magic Dealers Association was set up for two reasons. One, to help with unscrupulous dealers who maybe would steal other magician's ideas and build them or make themselves or others who would make knockoffs and sell them to dealers, and dealers would know their knockoffs but not the original thing. But the other thing that was a big deal, and if you ever read any old magic magazine advertisements, you'll know this was a problem, was misleading advertisements.

Mike Rose [00:35:49]:

And some were so misleading that they were just out and out lies in order to sell a trick. And much of the dealers in those days sold through mail order, sending out newsletters and catalogs. And so the person buying it didn't always get to see it demonstrated by walking into the shop and seeing it. So it was a big deal. And so because Phil had really two businesses, he was a retailer to magicians, so he wanted to be known as someone that could be trusted and a member of the Magic Dealers Association, not just a member, but the President. But he also wanted to make sure he dealt with honest dealers. So he didn't want his name to be sullied by dealing with people who didn't have nice business practices. So he felt that if he's selling as a jobber or wholesale magic to other dealers who are members of the MDA, he knew that he was dealing with someone who had the same goals and opinions about how a magic shop should be run and the honesty of the owner.

Mike Rose [00:36:48]:

So it just made it easier for the dealers to interact with each other as well as the consumers to know who they're dealing with.

Adrian Tennant [00:36:54]:

Now when we were preparing for this podcast, you did share with me that you did meet Phil Thomas -but that personal interaction with him wasn't particularly positive.

Mike Rose [00:37:06]:

Well, yeah. Okay. This I did not mention this in the book, and Mark and I went back-and-forth a lot about this, but we just didn't feel it had a place in the book. So you're getting the scoop here, Adrian, okay! This has not been published. I've just mentioned this to to a couple friends, but I did meet Phil Thomas only once. By the time I'd moved from Michigan to the east coast, at the time, I've mentioned I was living in the DC area, and so I really was not a regular in the Baltimore magic scene in the early eighties. So one day, my girlfriend then at the time, we decided to play tourists for a day and go to Baltimore and see the sites.

Mike Rose [00:37:43]:

And I looked in the Yellow Pages, which for our younger listeners, that was our version of the Internet. The Yellow Pages you looked up ... I looked up "magician supplies" and found that Baltimore had the Yogi Magic Mart. So I convinced my girlfriend and said, "Hey, let's go there at least for a little while and check it out." So we did. So and this would have been the early nineteen eighties, maybe '82, '83. And Phil only stayed in business until '85 before he retired. So this is towards the end of the run of the Yogi Magic Mart.

Mike Rose [00:38:11]:

But it was the third location. We rode up that tiny little rickety elevator to the second floor. And, you know, when the elevator doors opened, you're greeted with this unbelievable sensory overload, just cases and cases ... glass cases stuffed with magic. I mean, just piled up. It was just startling to try to take it all in. And it was this long expansive room that, you know, had been the dance studio just filled with glass cases, each just packed with magic, and there were shelves behind the cases. It was just overwhelming. I thought, "Wow!"

Mike Rose [00:38:43]:

"I need to find out what some of this stuff is. I've never seen some of this before." Because a lot of it was antique magic that he was still selling but had just been in the counters for ages. So I started asking the man behind the counter, which later turns out it was Phil, you know, asking him questions. "Oh, what's this? What's this?" And at the time, he was kind of engrossed in a conversation with someone else, another man who was behind the counter. And so each time I had a question, I had to interrupt their conversation, and he kind of comes over almost begrudgingly to answer my question. And, eventually, after several times of doing that, I think he kind of had enough. And, and so he just picked up a catalog and dropped it on the counter in front of me and said, "Everything is in there. You look through that."

Mike Rose [00:39:25]:

"And if you see something you want to buy, let me know." And he walked away back to his conversation. And I I don't want to say he walked away in a huff, but it was very abrupt. And so I looked at my girlfriend, and I shrugged and said, "Well, I guess we're done here." And we left. So it wasn't the most positive experience. But from doing all this work on his life story, I learned that that was not who Phil was. But then it occurred to me also why he always wanted to be on the second floor so that there wouldn't be just people wandering off the street, curiosity seekers.

Mike Rose [00:39:58]:

And I think it's my fault, to be honest. I did not introduce myself. I didn't say, "Hey, I'm a magician from out of town. I'm here visiting. I wanted to come and see your famous magic shop," which was all true. I just didn't mention it. I just walked in and started barraging him with questions.

Mike Rose [00:40:14]:

You know? So I think in his defense, he thought I was just a curiosity seeker and, you know, and that was that. And today, if I could travel back in time, I think it'd be fun to relive the experience. And rather than leaving, I might say, "Oh, by the way, I'll be co-writing your biography in forty years. Can we spend a little time together?" You know? But yeah. So I did not think ill of Phil because of that. I just think it's ironic that the only experience I had with him, you know, as his future biographer was not exactly the experience that all the other people I talked to had. Yeah. But there so there's your scoop, Adrian.

Mike Rose [00:40:50]:

I've not told that publicly before.

Adrian Tennant [00:40:52]:

Thank you for sharing. Just a reminder that you can be notified when new episodes of this podcast are published by subscribing to the email alerts. You'll find all the details on the podcast website at the magicbookpodcast.com which is where you can also find transcripts plus accompanying blog posts with summaries, timestamps, and links to resources mentioned in each episode. Mike, you've written articles about various aspects of magic history for publications like the Yankee Magic Collector, Magicol, and others. What makes a subject worthy of a full book versus an article in your view?

Mike Rose [00:41:35]:

Well, that's really a good question, and that's one I really haven't thought much about, to be honest with you. I think part of what makes a subject book-worthy is the level of interest the author has in it. I think I might argue that any subject could be a book if the writer is willing to do enough research and put in the time and energy to, you know, do the subject justice. Of course, naturally, if you're writing for a magazine or a journal, you have space limitations. So in that instance, it has to be an article because you only are allowed so many pages. But if you're really enamored with a subject, I think that's the most important driving force to whether or not it would warrant becoming a book. I think the author's passion for the subject as I was enamored with Joe Karson. That could have been an article just talking about the sensational poison swallowing act, but I became fascinated with the man and his life.

Mike Rose [00:42:27]:

And so through that, I think, you know, if you're writing with that sort of passion, that hopefully your writing then, in turn, compels the reader to be interested in the subject too and be glad that that topic is a book. But really, to be fair, I think just about anything could be book-worthy if it's fleshed out enough and there's some passion behind the research.

Adrian Tennant [00:42:47]:

Well, looking back over the articles and books you've either authored or coauthored, since your first book on Joe Karson, how has your approach to research and writing evolved, would you say?

Mike Rose [00:43:00]:

Well, there's two big things that have happened since I wrote the Karson book. That was in 1999, so we're talking twenty-five years ago. When I was researching Karson, again, there was no Internet to speak of or online databases. I had to physically page through volumes of magic magazines looking for mentions of Karson. I had to go visit archives in person, search through newspapers at the public library, go through their little microfilms looking at newspapers. That was the way you did research back then. At one point, I even drove from Baltimore to Springfield, Massachusetts where Karson had his magic shop and where he was buried. And I went through city records to find photographs of buildings from the day. And, so, yeah, you know, there's a lot more boots on the ground kind of research back then, where today with digital resources, you can do a lot of it sitting in front of your computer.

Mike Rose [00:43:53]:

But one of the things that I was very lucky back in 1999 was that I was introduced to a man named Bill Kuethe. Bill was a magic historian. He lived about an hour from me, so relatively close by. He was so kind, he was supportive, he just graciously opened up his magic library to me and let me spend literally several evenings, multiple hours each evening, just paging through his magazines and books, and he was just the kindest, most sharing person with his magic library and his knowledge. He passed away a few years ago, but I'll never forget how supportive he was. And I'm sincere when I say this, that if it weren't for him, there would have not been a Karson book, because I just didn't have the resources myself at that time. So it was all because of Bill Kuethe. And if that name is familiar to any magicians or historians listening, he was the one that published "The Magic Cauldron."

Mike Rose [00:44:45]:

It was a magazine that he put out, and he also was the expert on magicians' tokens. They haven't put out the first book on magicians' token collecting. So he was a fascinating guy. And another big thing that's happened in the last twenty-five years, because back in 1999, Bill Kuethe and maybe one or two other magicians who were into magic history were the only magic historians I knew. Well, since that time, from attending Magic Collector Weekends and The Yankee Gathering and other magic history events, I've met and become friends with many other like-minded magicians, magic historians, just become more ensconced in the magic history community. And so I have more people I can ask for advice, and I ask if they have certain things in their collection or their libraries that can help with research. So I just have these living resources that I didn't have twenty five years ago. And as a bonus, they're friends.

Mike Rose [00:45:38]:

So what's better than to, you know, spend some time with a friend over a like-minded topic? So, yeah, those are big things that have changed for me in the twenty-five years since doing the Karson book.

Adrian Tennant [00:45:48]:

Great. You're currently completing your next book entitled "Masters of Mishap: The Kohl and Company Story." Mike, can you give us a preview of what readers can expect?

Mike Rose [00:46:00]:

Oh, boy, this is a great story! Kohl and Company, they were a comedy magic act that was hugely popular. I mean, big-time popular starting in the nineteen seventies up until the 2000s. They were a favorite convention act. They typically closed the convention show. They almost always got standing ovations. They performed their act in multiple countries, actually, on four continents, on national TV, international TV.

Mike Rose [00:46:26]:

Even for royalty, they performed in Monaco for the prince. Most magicians will remember the act where, if the magicians were around in those days, that it was a comedy of errors where everything went wrong. But they weren't just a convention act. Many magicians thought it's hilarious, but it you know, layman wouldn't get the jokes kind of thing. But that wasn't true. Dick Kohlhafer was the 'Kohl' of Kohl and Company, so his real name is Kohlhafer. He went out of his way to rework his act so that it could play for layman, and that's why they were able to take it all over the world, because they were working some pretty high visibility venues, like I said, on TV in different countries. So the lay audiences did get it once Dick kind of fine tuned it so that both magicians and layman could get it. Dick was the 'Kohl.'

Mike Rose [00:47:12]:

And the 'Company' were two other assistants. One was the male assistant, which was Dick's brother, Al. And the third assistant changed over the years. There was always a female assistant. It was usually a family member, Dick's daughter or Al's wife or a niece, so there was really a family act. And what's probably the most amazing thing about Kohl and Company is that all of the members had full-time day jobs. They were not working their magic as a professional career. They did it all on weekends, vacation time.

Mike Rose [00:47:50]:

And for the people who can't see me — because Adrian's the only one who can see me — I'm doing air quotes. They did it also on sick leave. So they would just try to squeeze in these shows, this globe-hopping, all on these few days they head off on weekends and holidays. And they were basically for thirty, forty years working seven-day weeks because they'd work five days at their day jobs and then weekends somewhere around the world doing the act. And to me, that was just amazing. And because I have become so enamored with Baltimore magic history, which again is thanks to Mark Walker and Phil Thomas, this book falls into that category because Dick and Al, the brothers, grew up in Baltimore city. So they're in their eighties now, but they still both live near Baltimore, and they're both great guys. And I have got to tell you, this is my first experience ever writing about somebody who is alive.

Mike Rose [00:48:42]:

And what a treat because I get to hear about these stories, not secondhand, but firsthand, and not just somebody who saw it. But these are the guys who actually lived through these stories. So it's really been a fun experience working on this book, and I am so close to having it ready for publication. So that's in the hopper right now.

Adrian Tennant [00:49:04]:

We did start this conversation with you mentioning that you were working on a biography of Al Wheatley.

Mike Rose [00:49:11]:

Mhmm.

Adrian Tennant [00:49:11]:

You've been doing that for several years. So what drew you originally to his story, and why do you think it's important to tell?

Mike Rose [00:49:18]:

Yeah. Well well, first, just real quick. This has been kind of like the — what's the expression? — the monkey on my back or the albatross around my neck. I don't know what whatever your favorite expression is. It's the Al Wheatley book. I started this right after the Karson book was published, so I've been literally working on Al Wheatley for twenty-five years. I'm a little ashamed to say that there have been years where I haven't worked on it. It keeps getting put on the back burner.

Mike Rose [00:49:42]:

And it is now on the second from the front back burner because as soon as the Kohl and Company book is off to the printer, then I go full steam ahead on Al Wheatley again. But to answer your question, what drew me to him was because, as I mentioned, I was for a second book, I was trying to think what would be interesting in that kind of 'one-hit wonder' category Al Wheatley fell into. You know, everyone knows about the Chop Cup, but didn't know much else about him. Well, he was a very successful nightclub act. He traveled with a well known performer, Ted Lewis. He was a famous song and dance man in the fifties, and he headed up a tour. And Al Wheatley, as Chop Chop The Magician, traveled with him and toured with him. Al Wheatley performed on early television.

Mike Rose [00:50:25]:

He was on an episode of You Asked For It, an old TV show. He was even on the Ed Sullivan Show. Wheatley appeared on Ed Sullivan. So he was a very successful nightclub act. And, originally, he performed a Chinese act. So he was in oriental or Asian-style makeup, and he didn't speak. He performed to music. And he had a Western appearance, but with sort of a Chinese overtones, which, you know, today would probably be considered a little offensive, you know, to be honest.

Mike Rose [00:50:56]:

But that was one of the things that happened back in the thirties, I think, because of, you know, Will Robinson being Chung Ling Soo. Magicians thought, "Oh, I can pretend to be Chinese and do a Chinese magic act." That's what Al Wheatley did, but that was his career. He worked as Tung Pin Soo originally. And as Tung Pin Soo, the only time he would speak was when he used a magic word, and his magic word was "Chop chop!" So when he wanted the magic to happen, he would say "chop chop!" instead of "abracadabra" or whatever. But that was the only time he spoke during his act.

Mike Rose [00:51:27]:

Well, eventually, agents would try to book him. They say, "We want that guy, you know, the Chop Chop guy." They couldn't remember Tung Pin Soo. So being a smart marketer, he decided, "Well, I'll call myself Chop Chop The Magician." And that eventually, his friends would just call him the nickname of "Chop." And when he came up with the idea for a one Cup and Ball routine, he called it "Chop Chop's Master Cup Routine," I believe is the full title. And over the years, it just got shortened to "Chop Cup." And I think it's amazing that today, whenever a magician refers to something have a magnet secretly hidden in it, they call it "chopped."

Mike Rose [00:52:02]:

You know, "This thing is chopped." And that's kind of a little homage to Al Wheatley for his Chop Cup. So that's what drew me to him is that there was so much more about him than just that cup. He also had a magic shop called Exacto Magic. It wasn't much of a shop. It was in his later years, but he did put out some original magic. That was in the nineteen fifties, and that's when the Chop Cup came out. So there was quite a bit more to them than just that little cup and the magnetic ball.

Adrian Tennant [00:52:28]:

Well, I'm sure many listeners, including myself, are really looking forward to both of those books arriving in due course.

Mike Rose [00:52:35]:

Me too.

Adrian Tennant [00:52:37]:

Mike, since this is The Magic Book Podcast, what magic book - or books - do you most cherish in your collection and why?

Mike Rose [00:52:48]:

Well, I think this one's going to surprise most of your listeners. My absolute favorite magic book is not a biography. It's not a compilation of history stories. It's a reference book. It's called "The Bibliography of Conjuring Periodicals in English from 1791 to 1983," and it was by Jim Alfredson and George Daily. They put it out in 1986, and it's just a listing of every single magic periodical that they could find, and I think they found them all, with a reference of how many issues there were the size of issues the dates the production runs and It's just very dry reading because it is a reference work But it's my favorite and it's because it's probably the first book I bought when I got serious about doing magic history research. Because again, in those days, there was no internet. So having a resource that told me what magic periodicals existed and what time they existed It would tell me if it was this time frame that met the person, you know, career that I was researching. I would know where to look, what magazines to look for references, and mentions of my research subjects. So it was really a valuable book to me.

Mike Rose [00:54:02]:

So it's really sentimental is why it's my favorite book, but it's sentimental not just because it was my first reference magic history book I bought, but also because of the authors. George Daily is an amazing collector, historian, just really nice guy. I met him back when I was first starting research on Karson. He's the man that introduced me to Bill Kuethe. And George Daily and I, over the years, have become friends. He has been a great sounding board, and I asked him for assistance. He has an amazing library that he has allowed me to go in and do research in and he's just a very kind and supportive guy. And the co author of that reference book was Jim Alfredson now in the year 2000, again that first magic history convention, I met Jim Alfredson. He was the President of the Magic Collectors Association, and I remember this like it was yesterday.

Mike Rose [00:54:55]:

It was like a lunch break and in the hotel, and I had gotten a sandwich, and I'm looking for some place to sit. And Jim Alfredson, the President of the organization, is just sitting by himself at a table. So I went over and I said, "Is it okay if I sit with you?" He goes, "Yeah, of course." I go, "But you're the President. Should I be sitting with you?" And we just hit it off, and he became such a supportive kind person in the magic collector community that I will always remember how they treated me and how they influenced me. And the fact that they were the authors of the first book that was a serious reference to me, it just checked all the boxes. So, you know, my copy is signed by both of them, and it's probably my most cherished book in my library.

Mike Rose [00:55:41]:

I like it even better than the ones I write!

Adrian Tennant [00:55:45]:

Good answer. If listeners would like to learn more about you as a performer, your books, or articles, what's the best way to connect with you?

Mike Rose [00:55:55]:

Oh, well, actually, I finally have started a new website that kind of chronicles or catalogs my magic history work. So it's called baltimoreconjuringhistory.com, and it's still in its fledgling stages. There's a couple of pages up there, but it has all the articles I've written where you can find them, the books, and has references to, you know, lybrary.com where you can find the ebooks as well. And it has updates on my current projects that I'm working on. And, yeah, if anybody is curious in Baltimore conjuring history and my future books or past books, they can visit there and contact me through there. That'd be the easiest thing.

Adrian Tennant [00:56:33]:

Perfect. Mike, thank you so much for being my guest on The Magic Book Podcast.

Mike Rose [00:56:39]:

Well, it was a pleasure. I always enjoy an opportunity to talk about magic books, So it was a lot of fun.

Adrian Tennant [00:56:46]:

You've been listening to The Magic Book Podcast. In this episode, Mike Rose discussed his experience as a professional performer and magic historian, documenting the lives of influential yet under-appreciated figures in magic's past. We also learned about Mike's upcoming books on the Kohlhafer brothers and Al Wheatley. Mike's dedication magic communities are to the broader tapestry of magic history. Through his careful research, Mike continues to shine a light on the fascinating characters and institutions that have shaped the art of magic. You'll find the transcript accompanying this episode on the website at themagicbookpodcast.com, plus a blog post with a summary, timestamps, and links to the books Mike mentioned. If you have a question or would like to suggest a topic for a future episode, please contact me, adrian@themagicbookpodcast.com. Thanks for listening to The Magic Book Podcast.

Adrian Tennant [00:57:55]:

I've been your host, Adrian Tennant. Until next time, goodbye.