Scott Martell on Mr Fingers: The Magic of Irv Weiner

Adrian Tennant [00:00:03]:

Coming up in this episode of The Magic Book Podcast

Scott Martell [00:00:05]:

I wanted it to feel like Irv handed you his briefcase and said, "Here, this is everything." The reader certainly can just open up any page and pick up a wonderful routine and learn a new method, a new technique or presentational style. But I think there's value in the biography section as well, to give you a clear understanding that you should never give up, should always take things in stride, even when life gets tough.

Adrian Tennant [00:00:32]:

You're listening to The Magic Book Podcast, conversations about classic and contemporary books that teach, illuminate and celebrate the art of magic. I'm your host, Adrian Tennant, a lifetime student of magic and mentalism, occasional performer, and longtime book collector. Thanks for joining me. Today, my guest is Scott Martell, a magician, magic historian, and author based in Massachusetts. Scott's passion for magic began at the age of seven and has continued for more than 30 years, performing across New England at libraries, schools, and private events. Alongside performing, Scott has become a dedicated chronicler of magic history and a longtime officer and administrator of the New England Magic Collectors Association. Scott is also the author of "Mr. Fingers: The Magic of Irv Weiner," published by Penguin Magic in January of this year.

Adrian Tennant [00:01:36]:

It's a substantial, 338-page volume some 25 years in the making, and it serves as both an affectionate biography and a comprehensive record of the magic of Irv Weiner. [MUSIC] Scott, welcome to The Magic Book Podcast.

Scott Martell [00:01:56]:

Happy to be here, Adrian. Thanks for having me.

Adrian Tennant [00:01:58]:

Your passion for magic began around the age of seven. How were you introduced to it?

Scott Martell [00:02:04]:

I would say it's less of a core memory and more of a vague recollection. I had a neighbor whose older brother did magic tricks and we would take boxes and saw the sister in half. I distinctly remember the Linking Paperclips in Dollar Bill trick, which, you know, to a young child was really remarkable at the time. And there was also this sort of – it wasn't really magic in terms of a magic trick – but I had a babysitter fool me badly at that age by telling me a story that's akin to now what we know as 'Toy Story.' This was before the movie came out. He told me that when I went to sleep, toys came to life. And he proved it with a little Gumby figurine. And he would say, "Watch the Gumby."

Scott Martell [00:02:51]:

"When you close your eyes and pretend to sleep, it's going to walk across the yard." And so he told me to close my eyes. He explained and narrated this Gumby walking across the yard. And sure enough, I opened my eyes. It was gone from in front of me – and there on the rock wall, halfway across the yard, was that Gumby figurine. And this blew my mind. It kind of scared me a little bit too!

Scott Martell [00:03:11]:

That was sort of my first introduction to what magic was. But my first actual recording of this enthusiasm for magic was a second grade notebook. My teacher made us record our notes every week. And in there was "A David Copperfield special is coming up this Saturday night." And I was really excited to get to watch David Copperfield on TV. So that's as far back as I can recall.

Adrian Tennant [00:03:37]:

And when did you start performing professionally?

Scott Martell [00:03:40]:

It was always something I did for fun around family and friends. I remember distinctly in middle school, we were on a field trip and a friend brought a D'Lite, Rocco's D'Lite. Fabulous trick, marvelous, you know, visual effect, but really only lasts 10, 20 seconds if you don't have much of a presentation to go along with it. And so this friend performed this trick in one of the hotel rooms after, whatever it was, a ski trip. And everybody was enamored with that trick. But after they were awed and he was asked to do more, that was sort of the end of it. But me being an amateur who loved to read magic books and had a little bit of a collection of card and coin miracles, the tricks turned into a little impromptu session. I said, "I'd love to show you something with whatever you got, cards, coins."

Scott Martell [00:04:28]:

And from there on, my, I guess, reputation sort of grew in school. I did a coffee house presentation as a freshman where nobody was expecting anything from me. And it was the Insurance Policy trick, which is standard for all the pros out there. But for a lay audience, not expecting this freshman who brought a senior up on stage, a good looking young lady, and talked about, "Well, if I can find your card, we got to go out on a date." So I was rather gutsy in that presentation and it seemed as though I was failing. People are starting to kind of feel bad for me. But you know, the big ending where I produced the card and the finish line was, you know, "When can I pick you up?" [Laugh] That really cemented for me the reputation in school. And from there people asked me to do graduation parties, private shows, family events, but ultimately it became a fun side gig [doing] birthday parties.

Scott Martell [00:05:20]:

I want to say probably around middle school and high school, I started getting paid for performing and it never really became anything, you know, full time. Even still today I'm a part time professional. As Gene Anderson would say, "It doesn't mean you're less than a professional, you're still a professional. You just do it part time." But from an early age, I've always enjoyed sharing magic with friends and anybody that would pay to see it, I suppose.

Adrian Tennant [00:05:47]:

Makes sense. Well, alongside performing, you've become a chronicler of magic's history. When did your interest in the history of magic first take hold?

Scott Martell [00:05:58]:

It was certainly a direct correlation to when I started reading magic books. Early on, some of the great classics, the Henry Hay [Amateur Magician's] Handbook, but also George Schindler, Frank Garcia's easy-to-do "Magic with Cards" and "Magic with Everyday Objects." And there was a really terrific kids book that I think is sort of undersold these days - I think it was in my Scholastic school bookmobile. It was called "Backyard Magic" by Todd Karr. And that book really opened my eyes to some fabulous routines, impromptu magic. He teaches you how to produce a little plant from a seed in the ground.

Scott Martell [00:06:33]:

And this sort of impromptu nature effects were really astounding. But what I distinctly recall was in the back of that book, a bibliography where he had photos and descriptions of some very famous magicians. And as I started to read more and more magic books, I would find footnotes and mentions of other magicians. And that sort of led me down the rabbit hole, that scavenger hunt to learn more led me to ultimately learning, "Oh, there's a really vast array of information and other people who came before that had a lot of worthwhile contributions." And that sort of became just a natural occurrence. I would want to read about the book mentioned in David Williamson's book. You know, [Richard] Kaufman had great tricks, but also he had footnotes: "And this trick was invented by so-and-so," I got to get that book.

Scott Martell [00:07:20]:

So it was a natural occurrence to go down the scavenger hunt of magic. And that history really cemented itself with my introduction to the New England Magic Collectors association and in particular, Ray Goulet in his Magic Art Studio. Here I found myself surrounded by experts, historians, in a museum full of magic history. And that really was the turning point for me. NEMCA, as it's known, is just a fabulous organization with like minded individuals who just love sharing magic history. And from that point on, I was hooked. I had to learn more about magic and from that I think it improved my ability to perform. I certainly found some great resources, not just about magic history, but as a performer as well.

Scott Martell [00:08:08]:

I'm always grateful that I stumbled across these now friends in that organization, certainly.

Adrian Tennant [00:08:13]:

When you first heard Weiner's name, I believe you went looking for a book about him. What did you find?

Scott Martell [00:08:23]:

Not much. It was a conversation I had with David Oliver, who at the time was my mentor. And that conversation started from a discussion about local magicians and New England magic history. We have a rich background in magic and magicians and the name Irv Weiner, "Mr. Fingers" came up and I did not know who he was talking about. I was sort of ashamed after the fact because the more I learned about Irv, the more it was clear that this is sort of a local legend. So I was really, really taken in by the story of the man. But primarily it was the tricks that he created and the college presentation. I just was astounded that this, you know, middle-aged man could entertain a college audience for two hours with [a] pocket full of magic in a small briefcase.

Scott Martell [00:09:15]:

That just was something I envisioned doing. That this is certainly something worth learning because again, it might improve my performance ability. So from that conversation I wanted to find as much as I could. And I had asked I think David, and then several friends afterwards, you know, "Where can I find more about Irv Weiner? Is there a book?" And the answer was, "There's a book in the works." Supposedly Phil Willmarth had been working on the book for a long time. Nobody quite knew the status of the book, or if it was still in the works. So I took it upon myself to find as much information as I could through Bill Kalush's Conjuring Arts Research [Center].

Scott Martell [00:09:57]:

Ask Alexander - fantastic resource. And I started looking at periodicals, I started finding "Manu-Secrets" hidden in some of the magic shops. And I just started amassing as much as I could, very slowly. And looking back, there's something to be said for just being handed a complete work and going through somebody's life and magic and learning and then you're done with the book. Whereas I was forced to do my own research and find out as much as I could. And I think that process just drew me in more. And the more I found, the more I wanted to find. This guy certainly was a unique character and a fantastic magician.

Scott Martell [00:10:37]:

And so from that process, the research became an obsession, quite honestly. But there was a common thread. People I talked to, especially locally, who knew Irv, they all had this really similar experience in that he was a fabulous individual. He made you feel special in that moment. And the magic was just amazing. But then each story was a little different in their own experience. And so the research never was meant to be a book. We all were waiting for Phil to finish it eagerly.

Scott Martell [00:11:07]:

I had reached out to Phil several times and offered him what I had for research in hopes to propel the book a little quicker. And it was just fun to look and find new things and discover little tidbits here and there and slowly, incrementally, learn about the man. And so ultimately, as you know, the research did turn into publication.

Adrian Tennant [00:11:32]:

Scott, you never met Irv. How challenging was it to create an intimate portrait of a man based only on what he left behind?

Scott Martell [00:11:44]:

Well, it was an uphill battle not being able to sit down with somebody and pick their brain and talk to them when you're writing a book on them. However, I had the next best thing, and that was close proximity to his friends and family, as well as the magic shop that he frequented, which was Ray Goulet's Magic Arts Studio. And Ray had published and had released a lot of Irv's "Manu-Secrets" through the shop, published as a Magic Arts item. And so I had resources available to me, but it was certainly a hurdle not being able to sit down and talk directly to Irv. It's quite funny, though, Adrian. Now, after all the research is done, and from the angle that I took and the time it took, I feel like I have a general sense of who Irv was. It would have been fantastic to have met him, obviously, but having met all the friends and family and learned through his personal notes and seeing the videos, I suppose that's the next best thing. I think, looking back on the process, I had an advantage that Phil Willmarth did not have.

Scott Martell [00:12:51]:

You know, Phil struggled to finish this book. It was clearly a task that became more daunting than I think he supposed. In the beginning, I was able to acquire his notes and some correspondence from his widow, Robbie Willmarth. And in those files, he made it clear he was having issues putting Irv's personality down on paper. You can transcribe a trick and explain it in technical terms, but what he really wanted to connect to the audience with or the reader was the personality. Who Irv was, and why those magic tricks that he performed were so impactful. And I certainly had trouble early on, but reading that in Phil's notes, I agreed with that sentiment, and that became my direction in writing it. I felt that I was more of a curator than an author.

Scott Martell [00:13:40]:

Luckily, Irv wrote and published a ton of material and had quite a way of writing as well that was unique to him, and it was mentioned in some of the testimonials. He pulled you in with this writing. "Oh, here's a little something that not everybody's going to pick up on, but it's so important and you're going to love it. And it's the real work." Those little tidbits draw you in as a reader. And Irv communicated that extremely well, particularly in his lectures, in his writings. And so I made an early decision that I want Irv's voice to shine through. It's the best way to honor the man who wrote the material is to let him speak for himself in a way.

Scott Martell [00:14:16]:

So I made sure to kind of step back and allow his voice to shine. And hopefully his personality came through. And I think we accomplished that for the most part, but it was a challenge. But having that proximity, as I said, through Phil Willmarth was over in Chicago writing this material from afar. He had notes and he had. Anthony Brahams was helping transcribe lectures and “Manu-Secrets” from England. But there was a clear separation geographically, but also in the communication that really hindered Phil's progress.

Scott Martell [00:14:49]:

I was fortunate that I could walk into Ray Goulet's Magic Art Studio on a Saturday and talk to Alan Wassilak, talk to David Cresey, and pick their brains and get some real great insight. But then the introduction to Irv's family was really the monumental moment for me. That's when it all opened up and when it truly became a book project.

Adrian Tennant [00:15:10]:

So how did Irv's family, Cheryl and Alan, come to trust you with the father's material?

Scott Martell [00:15:18]:

You could definitely tell in that first meeting there was a bit of apprehension because of just the history of the book project itself. This book had been in the works for decades, had lots of chances to complete it, never came about, and they weren't sure who this kid was inquiring about their father. They wanted a book, but at the same time, they wanted a legacy left worthy of Irv's greatness. And as soon as I sat down and started talking to them about who I was, my background in magic, and I think in particular, all the people I knew, who we had a commonality with, they opened up and they gave me some great resources. A lot of family photos, notes, and firsthand accounts and stories from that discussion. We made a decision early on to include everything. The triumphs as well as the failures and the tribulations and the hardships. I believe Irv had mentioned in some correspondence with Phil early on that ...

Scott Martell [00:16:19]:

"No, nobody wants to hear that background stuff. You know, my troubles are my own. Let's just focus on the magic." And that's how they envisioned the book originally to be. I saw, though, that this backstory was truly a remarkable tale of an individual who went through hell, truly, or came out of it in a positive way to share magic and use it as a vehicle to communicate that positivity. So we agreed to include everything in the story, and they gave me all the first-hand background information that, again, would not have been available to someone like Phil Willmarth originally. So I believe because of these interactions with the family and the time it took just to acquire, piece by piece, the full story, I think it became a really great publication and the family was thrilled after handing them the copy, going through it, and they felt that it did make that connection to their father. So I don't think they regret asking me to pilot the project.

Adrian Tennant [00:17:20]:

[Music] If you're enjoying this episode of The Magic Book Podcast, please consider leaving a rating on Spotify or a review on Apple Podcasts. You can also follow The Magic Book Podcast page on Facebook, thanks. Scott, Irv grew up in Boston, the son of deaf parents - and that goes right to the name Mr. Fingers. What did you learn about Irv during those early years?

Scott Martell [00:17:47]:

The name Mr. Fingers was really intriguing, and that's what drew me in. And that's why he chose the name Mr. Fingers. It's the name that you remember. It has sort of weird connotations, but it's intriguing. And learning the backstory of where he actually got the name from adds to that story that he would tell on college campuses.

Scott Martell [00:18:07]:

Early on, his parents were deaf and they communicated with sign language. So Irv had an early introduction to hand signing and using his body to communicate, and that later became a great asset, communicating on stage with body language. But he was a fantastic orator and was able to narrate his show, which really made his character distinct. But early on, his introduction to magic was quite remarkable. His mother showed him a little magic trick with a piece of string and from that time on, he just found magic to be a marvelous hobby. And he would go to the library, find as much information as he could. He was always practicing or reading magic tricks.

Scott Martell [00:18:51]:

He would use it to sell sandwiches and sodas on the Boston and Maine Railroad as a traveling salesman. It was something that he always kept with him that I think grounded him, particularly considering he went through some of the greatest hardships this country has experienced with the Great Depression, the wartime sacrifice. And his ambition – he was actually not allowed to join the military because of his height restrictions. He was a small guy, about 5 foot 1, 5 foot 2, and they told him, "No, you couldn't come and join the military." So he went home. So he says he went home and he grabbed the bed rungs and stretched until he met the minimum requirement. And he joined the Navy. And he ended up, you know, making his own history and legacy.

Scott Martell [00:19:38]:

And that was sort of his ambition. He was part of the greatest generation. And there was certainly something to be said for his desire never to quit and to, you know, take the adversity and use it. And the magic constantly was a rock in which he could grab onto. During the war in the Navy, he always had a bound volume of "The Jinx" in his locker under his bed. He was constantly creating new effects and showing his shipmates. A lot of these sailors were adept at cards themselves as they gambled quite often to spend time on board. And so he was always creating, thinking, and developing magic.

Scott Martell [00:20:18]:

And it was clear that this is what he wanted to do for the rest of his life. He was hooked on magic, and he was very good at it. Technically speaking, he was marvelous technician with cards and coins. But what was not expressed so much in the book, but it was told to me by Ray Goulet. Early on, he was not adept at public performances. He felt much more comfortable in front of other magicians. And so he really was a magic dealer. And he would perform in magic conventions for other magicians.

Scott Martell [00:20:49]:

But the public performances, they were a little more subdued. He wasn't searching for that professional magician lifestyle for the public. It was magic for magicians early on. And I think throughout his life, you could see he loved to create and he loved to perform, but he just seemed to feel more comfortable around other magicians and people who sort of knew the craft, because he could talk about the craft quite in depth. He was a historian of magic as well as great technician and creator.

Adrian Tennant [00:21:20]:

Well, after the Second World War, Irv used the GI Bill to study at the Chavez Studio of Magic. Scott, can you walk us through that journey?

Scott Martell [00:21:30]:

So Irv left after the war ended, and he had a resource, and that was the GI Bill. And he knew he wanted to use it to learn more magic. So he went to California and he used the GI Bill to enter Chavez College, as you said. And he met some wonderful, marvelous performers that really propelled his desire to learn and be the best magician he could. I think Neil Foster was one of the first individuals he met and became a lifelong friend. He was so proficient at magic and teaching magic and learning, and he was quite the student. In fact, it was said that he ended up teaching some of the classes at Chavez after a time. So he not only passed, I guess, he became an educator as well in that fashion.

Scott Martell [00:22:17]:

He used the magic as a secondary occupation as well. While he was out in California, he was working at The Biltmore Hotel as a page. And so he would get tips for holding the door and running the elevator, handling luggage. But that hotel was sort of the meeting spot and well known for the celebrity guests. All the Hollywood stars of the day would congregate at that hotel. And so, Irv would perform for some elite people. And that built his confidence and also sort of created a name for himself locally there. But eventually he got homesick and he wanted to move back to the east coast where he knew the majority of people in the magic world.

Scott Martell [00:23:01]:

And he missed his family as well. So he ended up going back to the East Coast. But he definitely brought a lot of experience from California with him. And the time in the military also shaped his character. And he came back sort of a better adult, if you will.

Adrian Tennant [00:23:18]:

Well, back in Boston, Irv opened his own shop and began self publishing the "Manu-Secret" series. I actually owned a couple of those myself before I moved here to America. Can you tell us about Irv as a creator and self publisher?

Scott Martell [00:23:35]:

So that says it right there. His Manu-Secrets made it across the pond. And it was said that especially in terms of Red Tape Thumb Tie, you know, it's a successful creation when it's ripped off often. And I think Red Tape was stolen many times over. And credit to that trick sort of was lost to time. I was familiar with Red Tape Thumb Tie early on hearing Irv's name, but I did not associate it with him until after I started digging in Irv's creations. Some of them were sort of whimsy and, you know, they were good ideas, but they didn't sell really well. Others were really time tested and well honed through his performances.

Scott Martell [00:24:16]:

So it was a mix. Not everything was fantastic, but there was certainly a level of creativity in them that was unique to him. They weren't brand new effects, but he would find a little twist to a presentational a new routine, a new plot or a method that was different and slightly easier. Because he always preached simplicity in magic. It's not that it was easy, but to simplify a trick meant you could now focus more on the presentation side. Irv loved to create tricks. It came naturally to him. This is something I struggle with.

Scott Martell [00:24:53]:

I certainly have great admiration for those who are creative in the magic realm. But we're all very thankful for the wonderful creations that we're able to ultimately, you know, make our own and share with the public, if we're professional performers or even amateurs who just love magic. One of the things though that Irv struggled with was his technical skill and his personality. It was his own. And when he opened the Studio of Magic, he sold his own "Manu-Secrets" and his own magic tricks. But oftentimes after selling the trick and the individual would bring it home and try it. And a lot of people had trouble replicating what they saw at the magic shop early on because they could not duplicate Irv's personality. Not all the "Manu-Secrets" were technically, you know, difficult, but there was certainly a level of expertise in some of them that not every amateur magician would be capable of reaching.

Scott Martell [00:25:48]:

It happens to us even today. You go to a magic shop and you see a dealer item performed and you get home and it just doesn't work the same way. If you don't put the time into it, it probably goes in the junk drawer. But Irv certainly had some wonderful "Manu-Secrets" and some wonderful tricks. He published quite a bit in Hugard's Magic Monthly, some wonderful card moves in that magazine. There was a slow reputation starting to gain momentum that "This guy Irv Weiner was creating some really unique and special magic tricks. And you guys should all take notice."

Scott Martell [00:26:22]:

Eventually the magic shop closed because he couldn't sell the "Manu-Secrets" at scale. And he was not the greatest businessman in running a shop, but he was also in direct competition to Max Holden's Magic Shop, which was right above him, I think in the same building, as a matter of fact.

Adrian Tennant [00:26:41]:

Wow.

Scott Martell [00:26:41]:

So he wanted to run his own shop, but it was clear that he just didn't have the acumen for it. But after he closed the shop, he still managed to sell many of his "Manu-Secrets" successfully through Holden's Magic Shop. And so that line of Irv Weiner "Manu-Secrets" continued after the failed business venture, and he continued to publish "Manu-Secrets" but also articles and publications. And it was something that he was just naturally gifted at.

Adrian Tennant [00:27:09]:

Scott, Irv could hold an audience of a thousand for a two hour show with nothing but a briefcase. You're a working magician today. Is that surprising to you?

Scott Martell [00:27:21]:

It hooked me hearing that he could entertain college audience for two hours with nothing more than a briefcase and a pocket full of miracles. It was truly the one item that gained my attention because, yeah, I would love to emulate that sort of performance. How do you capture an audience's attention with minimal amount of props? Right. It's crucial, I believe, for any sort of performer to be able to connect. And oftentimes I feel like apparatus can be a hindrance because a lot of times people hide behind the secret, the method and the props. Whereas it's you, you're the performer, you're the entertainer, you're being sold. I've often heard and agree with one of the most difficult forms of entertainment is stand up. Stand up comedy is you, a dialogue, a microphone, and the audience – and that's it. So you need to be on, you need good material, and you need to be an engaging person.

Scott Martell [00:28:16]:

So, yeah, hearing about Irv accomplish this task, it was astounding. Seeing the college performance really opened my eyes to what's possible in magic if you have something valuable truly to share and the ability to communicate it efficiently as well. But, you know, in an era of bigger and louder, Irv proved that smaller and more personal is what sticks with people. Ultimately, it's very important, I think, for young magicians to learn not a ton of tricks, but pick and choose just a handful. Become really adept at them technically, but make them your own. Have something engaging and worthwhile to communicate. And I think no matter what you do, whatever style of magic it may be – kids show magic, mentalism, close-up, stage – the props really are secondary to you.

Scott Martell [00:29:09]:

And Irv's personality was one-of-a-kind, and he had the ability to get that across, which is why he was successful ultimately.

Adrian Tennant [00:29:17]:

Well, it certainly comes across in your book that Irv connected with people and found wonder in ordinary objects. How would you describe his performing philosophy?

Scott Martell [00:29:29]:

To share yourself, the magic certainly has to be good. The magic can't suffer in terms of method or, you know, just in terms of its impact. But you are the magic, you are the entertainment. They came to see you, not your cards. They came to see what you can do with the cards and how you can make them feel in that moment. And he didn't use magic to necessarily impress people outwardly, but he used it to reach them and share his unique personality. And that ultimately made a lasting impression on them. It's important to understand a lot of technical aspects of magic, have a good background in it, but I think also you need to have a solid foundation in theater and presentation.

Scott Martell [00:30:14]:

Ken Weber's "Maximum Entertainment" is one of my favorite books on the subject, as well as Tamariz's "Five Points of Magic." You get into "The Books of Wonder" with misdirection techniques or "attention-getting techniques," as Tommy would say. But Irv's's philosophy ultimately was to be yourself. Maybe an exaggerated version of yourself, but use magic as a vehicle to share your outstanding personality. It doesn't have to be comedy, it doesn't have to be serious, dramatic. It can be whatever you enjoy and what makes you feel most comfortable in front of people. And that honest character is sort of an extension of yourself. But the magic is a way to share that outstanding personality and something unique and worthwhile for sure.

Adrian Tennant [00:31:04]:

Michael Ammar said, quote, "Irv Weiner probably had more influence on my magic than maybe anybody." Scott, how did those testimonials for the book come together?

Scott Martell [00:31:17]:

I was just as shocked as my friends seeing those testimonials. I think it just proves that Irv's story and legacy was certainly worth sharing. As I dove further into the research, I uncovered some marvelous testimonials and reviews from magicians that I hold in high regard. And that just made it clear to me early on, "Yep, this guy is worth learning about and sharing." I think I read Michael Ammar's quote first in one of his early books – I think it was "Encore 2." He had a marvelous testimonial in the back of the manuscript touting Irv Weiner as a great influence on him. And as I asked many, many people about Irv Weiner, I constantly was given the great gift of "I'll give you a review if you want a review ...

Scott Martell [00:32:09]:

"If you want a testimonial, I would love to talk about Irv. Whatever you need." People were more than willing and eager to share their personal stories about Irv. And it was clear to me that people wanted this book. They had been waiting for a long time. And he had a great influence on a wide array of magicians – mentalists, close-up, stage performers, even kid show performers as well – talked highly about him both as just an individual, a great guy, but also as a proficient professional who is willing to share very clearly and adeptly as well. He was a fantastic lecturer, sharing his magic because he wanted magicians to succeed.

Scott Martell [00:32:51]:

He wanted the art of magic to move forward in the future and find greater success in new avenues and new young magicians. And these reviews and testimonials really were a shock to me. When I saw that Penguin finally put out the promotional video with the reviews, I was not expecting Mac King to put out some wonderful words about Irv. Jamy Ian Swiss - he was not expected, and I admired Jamy's work from an early age. So there was some surprises in there even for me. And I'm glad that Penguin didn't tell me about them because it was quite a shock. It was proof, it was proof that this whole project was worth doing and ultimately I think it's been a success for sure.

Adrian Tennant [00:33:38]:

Well, "Mr. Fingers" is a large format book, richly illustrated with scans of Irv's own manuscripts. Scott, what did you want it to feel like in the reader's hands?

Scott Martell [00:33:52]:

I wanted it to feel like Irv handed you his briefcase and said, "Here, this is everything." It's a compilation of sorts, but it's also a narrative of a great life and legacy. I wanted his personality to come through, make sure that Irv's personality is what people take away from this book. But there was a lot of material, a lot of tricks, and so to get everything into the book, it was not going to happen. We didn't get every single thing, but the bulk of the material certainly had a unique angle and something different. Even the material that people are aware of and has been around for a while. Irv's little twists and additions made it his own. And I wanted it to be a full scope of the life and then also of the creativity side and the performance as well.

Scott Martell [00:34:43]:

But it was important to have the biography start the book so that you learned more or less about all the things he went through in his life that shaped who he was and his values. And I think that kind of gives credence and validity to why he performed the way he did and how he connected to his audiences so successfully. The reader certainly can just open up any page and pick up a wonderful routine and learn a new method, a new technique, or presentational style. But I think there's value in the biography section as well, to give you a clear understanding that you should never give up, should always take things in stride, even when life gets tough, there's always a second chance. And if you really apply yourself and give 100% and enjoy what you do and put yourself into the work, you can be successful. And so I just hope people understood this book. It took a long time, but it certainly took a long time because of the depth and breadth that Irv was – the man himself.

Scott Martell [00:35:49]:

He was a complicated guy and it's a complicated story, but the magic shines through and I hope there's something for everybody. But more than anything else, his family is finally satisfied that this book is finally done and out there.

Adrian Tennant [00:36:04]:

This book was not without its challenges. Scott, when we were preparing for this interview, you said to me that this 25-year project felt almost cursed with real losses along the way. How so?

Scott Martell [00:36:20]:

The whole history behind the book is a story in and of itself. From original origins. It was Ray Goulet who was offered the book project, Irv's closest friend and confidant. I believe there really was nobody better than Ray to take on this project. But however, the timing was just bad. Ray was not available at that time because of all the other book projects that he was working on. He was working with Ben Robinson at the time on Twelve Have Died" the bullet-catching book. And I think also Ray knew Irv earned the right to a fantastic publication.

Scott Martell [00:36:57]:

And I think Ray understood just how much work it was going to take to make this book a success and worthy of Irv. So he declined the project early on. So the first person asked declined. So then the project moved to Chicago. Irv was out lecturing in Chicago and was asked about a book project and Phil Willmarth enthusiastically signed on and Irv said "Yes, absolutely!" He admired Phil's work as a publisher and editor and the project started from there. However, it was clear there were definitive hurdles along the way. The project moved at a moderate pace. There were issues with the correspondence and the communication between Irv and Phil.

Scott Martell [00:37:42]:

Also Anthony Brahams was transcribing lecture notes from England and working alongside Phil. But that communication also, you know, had a bit of a struggle. Nobody was quite sure who was heading the project and there's a bit of a dispute in that. But ultimately the book struggled to gain momentum. Phil had health issues, but he also had many other duties as editor of The Linking Ring and other publications. And Irv Weiner passed away in 1999 without a finished book. I think that pressure led to further difficulty for Phil and ultimately he lost the entire book draft in a computer crash around 2004. And so this project just sort of became this cursed, never-ending, stressful situation.

Scott Martell [00:38:36]:

I believe it was in 2010, around that time, I think Phil reached out to Bill Kalush to help him finish the project. But material was never handed off. And in 2014, Phil Willmarth passed away without a finished book. At that time I was introduced to Irv's family. Ray Goulet wanted me to take on the project. And so after I had started working on the book, I as well found this project to have some bad luck associated with it. On my way to Irv's daughter Cheryl, to start this project with the family, about a mile-and-a-half from Cheryl's house, I suffered a flat tire and was delayed about an hour or so in changing the tire to get over to start this project. In addition, a few years into the project, I also suffered a computer crash on my laptop.

Scott Martell [00:39:31]:

But I was fortunate to have some of it backed up, not as much as I should have. And then not only that, but I suffered my own setbacks health-wise. I was hospitalized with a severe case of COVID for about five days and I had multiple instances where I thought of the book – like "Is this because of the book? Is this really happening? Am I going to complete this thing?" And many friends also passed along the way. Ray and Ann Goulet passed, and one of my biggest regrets was not finishing for them to hand the book off to Ray and Ann. I really wish that I was able to accomplish that as they were one of the early prominent cheerleaders in making this whole thing happen. But along the way a lot of friends never got to see the book that they were waiting so long for. Ultimately, I decided during this process – I seriously did – I took out extra life insurance because I have a family and this book seemed to have some negative connotations to it, but I am just happy I live to see it released.

Adrian Tennant [00:40:36]:

[Music] Just a reminder that you can be notified when new episodes of this podcast are published by subscribing to the email alerts. You'll find all the details on the podcast website at TheMagicBookPodcast.com, which is where you can also find transcripts plus accompanying blog posts with summaries, timestamps, and links to resources mentioned in each episode. Scott, "Mr. Fingers" has been out since January with a glowing review in Genii and a warm welcome across the community. What has that response meant to you?

Scott Martell [00:41:13]:

Well, overall I am thrilled. Absolutely thrilled. I had a slight instinct during the book project that it would be well received simply because of the quality of the material. Reading it firsthand, I knew what I had. This was some marvelous magic and really incredible descriptions directly from Irv. My only concern was, was I going to get in the way? Was I going to muff this up? So I tried my best to be a curator. I wanted Irv's voice to shine through. I was fortunate to have such a wide array of professionals contributed their own work with Irv's voice in mind and their admiration for Irv.

Scott Martell [00:41:57]:

So it's a compilation for sure. It's a compilation of Irv's magic, most of it described directly by Irv, and then it's sort of seasoned with contributions from his friends and admirers and colleagues. And so I think it gives us really well-rounded perspective and it was certainly a challenge to make it a cohesive book and not just a mishmash of all these tricks and background. And that took some real help. I was fortunate to have some great people involved in this book. John Bach laid out the book and designed it and made it a gorgeous, readable publication. And John does some fantastic work, but also Penguin coming on board. Tim Trono introduced me to some wonderful contributors. Max Maven was on board at one point.

Scott Martell [00:42:47]:

John Lovick, David Regal, Mike Vance, just to name a few. So I had lots of help. But it was clear that this was going to be a good book, at least a good book. But reading the reviews and seeing the response, it's nothing less than remarkable. It's fantastic to have the opportunity, but to actually hand off this finished product to the family. And the response I cared most about was from Cheryl and Alan, that they trusted me with their father's story. I just hope I got it right. And from their response, they were thrilled.

Scott Martell [00:43:23]:

Yes, it was finished, but also it did a good job in conveying who their father was. I think that's what meant the most to me overall.

Adrian Tennant [00:43:34]:

Well, Penguin decided against producing a deluxe edition, so you produced your own: numbered, signed, in a slip case. Can you tell us about that project?

Scott Martell [00:43:46]:

Yeah, Penguin did a beautiful job with the standard edition. I'm absolutely thrilled with the quality and the production. It's a big book. It's bigger than I thought it was going to be. And size-wise, the 8 1/2 by 11 format, I struggled with deciding what size it would end up being because of the Hermetic Press lineage of books. You know, they all had the same size and dimensions – similar, I should say. They're not the same, of course, but this book needed to be physically bigger.

Scott Martell [00:44:20]:

And we made the decision early on that we were going to delineate from that Hermetic Press format. But I'm thrilled that it is a Hermetic Press publication. It's a personal accomplishment for me. I grew up reading Stephen Minch's work and admire all the Hermetic Press publications from the past and just now be part of that line of books is just a remarkable achievement that I feel so happy about. But the deluxe editions came about because I'm from the magic history and collecting world; the New England Magic Collectors association always would uncover something unique and different. And I wanted this project to have something a little unique and different. I wanted a collector's book.

Scott Martell [00:45:06]:

So I decided a very small run of only 50 copies. So Penguin sent me several boxes of the author's copies that I was able to have and, you know, hand out as I decided. So I said to myself, "What the heck am I going to do about this deluxe edition? Should I, shouldn't I?" I spoke to a couple of friends. My friend Michael Mayo, who's part of NEMCA, he recommended, "You gotta have a slip case and you can't just tip in a signature and call it a deluxe. You gotta make it valuable and worthwhile to people." And I concurred. So I realized I had a lot of original material that I accumulated during the research project. I had some really cool unique items, one of which was Irv's original playing cards that he handed out as a promotional item during his shows.

Scott Martell [00:45:55]:

And I had 52 of those cards. So there you go – 50 tipped-in Mr. Finger cards. This is also why I didn't go above 50 deluxe editions. But I wanted it to be an exclusive item for collectors who appreciate, you know, unique items. So we had 50 copies with the tipped-in card, the signature, and then we also have bespoke slip cases. And I took it upon myself to hand-make each and every one of those damn slip cases! You watch a YouTube video and you say, "Sure, why not? I can do that, no problem."

Scott Martell [00:46:32]:

Well, four months later and lots of scrap material thrown away, I finally got the measurements correct and the process down, and I'm really happy with the end result. I ended up printing the slip case liner inside myself and I ended up actually stamping the outside of the cloth covered slip cases myself as well. And so it's, I think, a nice way to honor the tradition of Irv as well. He was his own publisher, he was his own promoter, even his own booking agent. And I sort of followed that path in a small way. The deluxe book also comes with a few extra unreleased videos that I had from my own personal collection. I wanted it to be special and unique to the individuals who purchased those deluxe editions. And I'm really happy with the final outcome.

Adrian Tennant [00:47:23]:

Any book of this scale means leaving some things out. If There were a second edition of "Mr. Fingers," what would you add or change?

Scott Martell [00:47:34]:

Well, the grammatical errors that I found afterwards that I don't know how they escaped us. When you think about the amount of people who read over this manuscript prior to publishing and printing, I must have read this thing over a thousand times and still little gremlins sneak in, little errors creep in. I missed a few scans in some of the "Manu-Secrets" and a couple of people have emailed me stating, "Where's the rest of this?" One of the scans is actually uploaded to the Penguin link for the videos that comes with the book. You can actually get that forgotten manuscript scan from that link, so those who notice, that's where you can get it. But I was happy to hear from a few individuals sending me some corrections and missing material because it's clear people are actually reading this thing! There's some material I left out on purpose. We ran out of space really, is what it came down to. But there's a few extra little tricks that I would consider adding.

Scott Martell [00:48:38]:

Certainly the extra videos that I have laying around, I have the deluxe videos that I mentioned, but I also have more videos in my own personal collection that we could add to the project. The quality is not great. These came straight off of old VHS, old Beta, so we decided to leave it out. But there's certainly value in them. If we did put out a second edition, I would first fix all the little tiny typos and errors that just drive me crazy every time I open the book. But overall, I think it's mostly complete.

Adrian Tennant [00:49:09]:

Scott, late in life, Irv was working on a very different book, a kind of self-help book, in fact. Yet all that survives of it is a single voice recording. Can you tell us about that?

Scott Martell [00:49:23]:

Irv wanted to write a book, not a book on magic for magicians, he handed that over to Phil Willmarth to take. But Irv wanted to write a book, book on how to put magic in your own life, a book on love for yourself and for one another. It was sort of a motivational project and he wanted this to be released for the public. And he used magic as a vehicle and an analogy to put across the idea that we all have anxieties, addictions, depressions, fear, resentment, self-pity. But magic was sort of a metaphor for living well. You can surprise yourself in that way if you have the right mindset. He was called the Leo Buscaglia of magic, and he wanted to better people's lives, I think primarily because of the life he lived and all the issues he suffered and all the bad stuff in his life became motivation to not only improve himself, but but to help others improve.

Scott Martell [00:50:26]:

And you saw it particularly in his AA meetings. Irv was an alcoholic and he found sobriety and kept it for the rest of his life. But he was well known for helping others in AA to recover and get well. And he was a big cheerleader in that sense in helping people. He always was volunteering at hospitals and wanting to give himself to those who really needed it. And he was just a marvelously generous individual. And this book basically explained that we can all give ourselves away if we're okay with ourselves. And you should always put yourself forward in the best life that you possibly can.

Scott Martell [00:51:11]:

And he wanted to use Mr. Fingers as sort of a character in illustrating, like a prognosticator. He does predictions, but he cannot talk about tomorrow, you know, and he's an individual that can do magic. But magic's not a real thing in the sense of, you know, we do magic and "Poof!" it magically fixes itself. No, life takes work and perseverance and you need to put yourself in the right mindset in order to get the best out of life that you can. And so, yeah, Irv wanted this book on self-help and betterment to be his big production. He called Alan Wassilak, I think at 2 AM and left this voice recording for him. And that's the only recording we have of this book project.

Scott Martell [00:51:58]:

But in this hour-long recording he just went on and on and on. But he was explaining quite a bit about the benefits and how he could really help people. And that was clear. He thought this was something that was really going to help people in the public at large. And magic as a vehicle was a great analogy for that. I think a book on that for the public would have been a success, ultimately.

Adrian Tennant [00:52:25]:

What's the one thing you would want listeners to take away about "Mr. Fingers" that maybe the reviews so far haven't quite captured?

Scott Martell [00:52:35]:

Irv wasn't just about his tricks, he was about giving himself away. And he was sort of a motivational speaker on stage in a fashion. He wanted people to better themselves and to live the best lives they could. And that's because he went through his own personal hells and came out of it to be a better person. I mean, the reviews certainly do capture a lot of the magic and a lot of the man himself, but that background, that philosophy overall of "Live your best life and be kind, don't let people live in your head rent-free, you know, life's too short." He was remarkable at connecting with people and making them feel special in that moment of interaction. All the stories I heard, the personal tributes to Irv about, you know, "This is what Irv taught me." And "He was so generous with sharing and helping me."

Scott Martell [00:53:26]:

And that was a constant in my research. People willing and eager to share their personal stories about Irv. And they all shared these stories with such enthusiasm. It made a clear impression on me that Irv was really a special guy. And I think that comes through in the book. But it's really hard. It's really difficult to communicate that 100% efficiently in a written text. But we do have the video that accompanies the book and you can see Irv live and get an idea of his personality and his humor and who he was through some of those videos.

Scott Martell [00:54:00]:

So I think that gives a well-rounded perspective. Both the book and video in tandem for sure. But not knowing Irv personally as well, you know, it's hard for me to definitively say I missed this. I didn't do that. It's all in the book.

Adrian Tennant [00:54:17]:

Well, Scott, this is The Magic Book Podcast. So I have to ask you, what is your most cherished magic book – or books – and why?

Scott Martell [00:54:28]:

It's like choosing your favorite child - you just can't say it out loud! The book I'm currently reading that I absolutely adore and I highly recommend is the "Illusion Show" by David Bamberg. It's a great connection to magic history and the golden age of magic. Fantastic read. Absolutely marvelous. Highly recommend "Illusion Show." But in that respect, [Dr. Robert] Albo's books in particular, "The Magic of the Bambergs." Absolute fantastic resource.

Scott Martell [00:54:58]:

Not just for the magic tricks and apparatus and the technical skill, but the family history of Okito and the Bamberg lineage and the dynasty. That's a fabulous book. I know I'm answering this question with multiple answers, but I gotta say, you know, anything by Todd Karr, all of the Miracle Factory books are highly regarded. That's my working library for the most part. I constantly go back to those books: "Roy Benson by Starlight", "Al Baker" are the two that stand out. The Abbott books by Teller as well [House of Mystery: The Magic Science of David P. Abbott]. But if I was on a desert island, it wouldn't be one book, it would be a trilogy.

Scott Martell [00:55:34]:

And that's the Eric C. Lewis "Miracles" trilogy: "A Choice of Miracles," "A Continuation of Miracles," and "The Crowning Miracles," published by Mike Caveney in the 1980s. Those three books to me represent one of the greatest contributions to magic. Eric C. Lewis was just an amazing, amazing contributor: an illustrator, writer, author, creator, historian. Those books hold a little bit of everything, truly. It's a history of magic, but also of the war and England during that time, the magicians in the UK, but also how to build apparatus, how to perform close up tricks, mentalism, kids show routines, all hand-illustrated by Eric Lewis, and described first-hand. And I tried to replicate just a couple of his tricks from that book.

Scott Martell [00:56:28]:

And what I found even further was that he didn't give you all the information. You had to find it yourself. And that led to a better understanding of the tricks. You read something on paper, you say, "What a great idea, that works!" But the moment I put in front of an audience, it was clear, it needs my own personality, it needs a little bit more. You can't just take what he says and put it right into a show. You needed to have a little bit extra. And he really goes into presentation and character development.

Scott Martell [00:56:57]:

It's just a fabulous resource. Those three books. I could get rid of the rest of my library and still be content for the rest of my life reading those as my only resource on magic. And actually it's part of my retirement plan - I hope to take up woodworking and start creating some of these marvelous Eric C. Lewis creations. I'm fortunate to have a few original items in my collection that he created, but just going through those books and admiring a life dedicated to magic, we're all better off as magicians having Eric's work to fall back on.

Scott Martell [00:57:36]:

And so yes, the Eric C. Lewis trilogy are my absolute favorite magic books.

Adrian Tennant [00:57:40]:

Scott, for listeners who would like a copy of "Mr. Fingers: The Magic of Irv Weiner," where's the best place to find it?

Scott Martell [00:57:48]:

Penguin Magic is selling the standard edition through their website. You can get the same book from me, but I will sign it for you. I still have a handful left from those author copies. My website is MartellMagic.com. You can also email me scott@MartellMagic.com. I believe I have four or five of the deluxe editions still available for sale. If you want a personalized message in the standard edition, I'm happy to also personalize it for you, but any one of those options easy and quick and efficient way to get a copy of the book.

Adrian Tennant [00:58:26]:

Perfect. And finally Scott, what's next for you?

Scott Martell [00:58:31]:

I have no inclination to write another magic book anytime soon, especially a book on history of magic or a biography. This book took a lot of my creative energy and knowing now the process involved, I think the next project would be a little easier, but I know what would lie ahead and it certainly is quite a bit of work. The next project, if I do put out anything, might be a magic book of some of my own ideas and work. I've been performing as a part-time professional now for the last ten years or so. I perform primarily for families and kids shows. I specialize in library shows and during that time I found some unique and fun original ideas that maybe other people could benefit from. So I would say probably something of my own inventions would be the next venture. I do have a couple of magicians I'm researching for my own benefit.

Scott Martell [00:59:33]:

I don't want to say because it might become a book down the road, you never know. But I truly - unlike the situation with Irv - I hope that uncovering these names that I can just simply go online and purchase their book to learn as much as I can, rather than have to do all the work myself this time around.

Adrian Tennant [00:59:50]:

We talked about Hermetic Press and course of of course Stephen Minch's incredible authorship over the years. I understand he is going to be the special guest of honor at this year's Yankee Gathering.

Scott Martell [01:00:04]:

Yes, yes, I was thrilled to hear that Stephen Minch would be honored this year. So the Yankee Gathering will be taking place November 5th through 7th and it will be hosted in Nashua, New Hampshire. It's always a great experience, getting together with some wonderful friends and magic collectors and historians. And for all the book lovers who enjoy this podcast, this gathering is a wonderful resource to learn a ton of great new information, but also maybe find a few hidden gems, and some hard-to-find material and publications and books. The dealer's room as well as the auction are always a wonderful experience and just an overall great convention that takes a lot of work. And I know last year was a great success, and I'm really looking forward to this year's convention as well.

Adrian Tennant [01:00:58]:

Scott, this has been a great conversation. Thank you so much for being my guest on The Magic Book Podcast.

Scott Martell [01:01:05]:

Adrian, it's a pleasure and thank you for doing what you do. All of us magic book nerds are better off for The Magic Book Podcast. I appreciate you having me.

Adrian Tennant [01:01:14]:

Thanks so much. You've been listening to The Magic Book Podcast. In this episode we learned how Scott Martell came to write the definitive book on a man he never met, traced Irv Weiner's journey from a Boston boyhood to the Chavez Studio, and on to the college circuit, explored the magic and the philosophy that made Mr. Fingers a legend among legends, and heard the long, sometimes star-crossed story of bringing this 25-year project into the world. You'll find a transcript of this episode on our website at TheMagicBookPodcast.com along with a blog post containing a summary, timestamps, and links to the resources we mentioned. And if you have a question or would like to suggest a topic or a guest for a future episode, you can reach me at adrian@TheMagicBookPodcast.com. Thanks for listening to The Magic Book Podcast. I've been your host, Adrian Tennant. Until next time, goodbye.